Religion, Personal Finance, and Dave Ramsey
March 12th, 2008 by Ana
I’ve been having a rather interesting conversation with a few other bloggers about religion and personal finance. Apparently a couple of the overtly religious Christian PF bloggers like Gibble and Lynnae get comments on a weekly basis saying they should leave religion off their blogs. Others, like plonkee, get the suggestion to not mention religion (or in plonkee’s case, lack of religion since she’s atheist) to avoid alienating readers, especially the “Dave Ramsey acolytes.”
I guess I can be described as a “Dave Ramsey acolyte” of sorts, or at least a “Ramsey-ite.” Here’s the kicker (or punchline if you prefer) though: I am not Christian. I am not going to get into what my beliefs are or are not, because that just isn’t the purpose of this blog. Someday I might start up have now started a blog for that subject, but right now my focus is on the personal finance and Dave Ramsey side of things.
But there is the sticky wicket: Dave Ramsey isn’t just Christian, he is VERY Christian. Since I am well-versed in the Bible (pun intended) and my mom would not have raised us kids any other way, I understand most of his Biblical references and simply accept him for who and what he is. I know there are some non-Christians who are very turned off by Dave Ramsey’s openness about his faith, and I feel they are closing themselves off to an excellent opportunity. Then again, I am not the kind of person who would stop talking to someone based on religion alone.
Hubby teases me about being a non-Christian listening to Dave Ramsey as often as I have teased hubby about being a reluctant spouse who tries to get his coworkers to listen to the FPU audio CDs we have. We’re both a bit contradictory LOL But while I may not share Dave Ramsey’s faith, I do share his belief in the money handling methods. No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater here. Dave Ramsey’s baby steps worked to get me out of debt and I firmly believe they will help me achieve a level of wealth above what our income would suggest.
I personally think it would be great if Dave Ramsey offered a secular version of his Financial Peace University … but I don’t think it will happen. I have yet to hear a single radio show where Dave Ramsey doesn’t mention faith, Christianity, or a Bible verse. It seems to be a part of who he is.
And now for the part I truly hesitate to broach: I do have one big beef with Dave Ramsey. One of the requirements for becoming a certified counselor through his company is you must be Christian, according to the FAQs on his website. That means no matter how much I believe in his baby step program, I can never get the stamp of approval from him simply because of my religion. I can take the counselor training (at a reduced price), but not receive the certificate. Dave Ramsey doesn’t believe a person can make it through without his version of god.
This really does sadden me. I’d love to have a secular version and take his financial advice out to those who might otherwise be turned off by his overt Christianity, because the personal finance model is rock-solid. The problem is I don’t see either one happening any time soon.
So, it’s off my chest now: there is a reason you don’t see much on this blog about Christianity or Bible verses (even though I do like that Proverbs one about the borrower being slave to the lender). It may be who Dave Ramsey is, but it isn’t who I am. And yes, I do feel like I stick out like a sore thumb being a non-Christian Dave Ramsey fan. One would think by my age I would be used to being “different” and “weird” but sometimes it still makes me stop and think. I’m probably not the only one out here, but I have no illusions about being in the definite minority.
But, back to the original conversation that kicked this rambling off. Should bloggers mix religion and personal finance? Looking at subscribers and traffic, I’d be inclined to say “Yes” since both Gibble and Lynnae are kicking my (donkey) in both. Or maybe it’s more a case of “Be who you really are” instead of an either/or on religion. If that’s the case, it’s taken me about nine months of blogging (other than a sentence or two in previous posts) to finally get this load off my chest. I am a non-Christian personal finance blogger who is a Dave Ramsey fan. Yeah, I guess that makes me “officially weird.” But that is what and who I am.
Posted in Dave Ramsey |
March 12th, 2008 at 7:42 am
I’ve learned that as long as you explain yourself well and back up your statements, then you’ll be ok. However, you’ll never please all readers and usually religion and politics attracts the most blog trolls.
I always skip past any article that even mentions Dave Ramsey, so I don’t know much about him, but I do find his requirement that you be a Christian (being one myself) to be a poor requirement. Honestly, you can never know how truly someone believes or doesn’t believe and mixing religion and business to that level is just going overboard.
March 12th, 2008 at 8:40 am
Just being a Christian isn’t enough to be certified. One must be a “practicing Evangelical Christian”. I wonder how he defines that for certification purposes.
March 12th, 2008 at 9:34 am
Should bloggers mix religion and personal finance?
Well, to be your internal belief system, whatever that may be drives your financial decisions. That’s why it’s called “Personal” finance, as it is very personal.
Whether you should or shouldn’t is really up to you. I couldn’t be otherwise as it just isn’t me. To quote Popeye “I yam what I yam”. For others, it might not be the right decision.
I knew when I started my blog that it would turn people off. I do try to be VERY open to others perspectives and beliefs and always try to write my articles so that it can appeal to everyone, but I do include scripture as it is the backing for which I base my beliefs.
Good article, and I applaud you for being who you are. It should generate lots of discussion
As for why Dave does this, I think this distinction is counselor not teacher. Note as part of his training, he includes prayer and bible study. I would think it would hard for someone who isn’t of the Christian faith to meet these two parts of his program, or at least do so with an sincerity.
Will he do things differently? No, I don’t think so, just like I wouldn’t blog on Gather Little by Little without including my faith. It just isn’t me.
March 12th, 2008 at 9:35 am
sorry, that first sentence should have been” Well, your internal belief system, whatever that may be drives your financial decisions. That’s why it’s called “Personal” finance, as it is very personal.”
March 12th, 2008 at 10:08 am
I agree, Ana. What happens when someone who is Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. wants to become a certified counselor? That doesn’t seem quite fair, and I kind of have a bone to pick about that one as well.
March 12th, 2008 at 10:31 am
*Waves*
Hi! I’m a non-Christian Dave Ramsey fan, too!
All of your feelings on the matter mirror mine.
March 12th, 2008 at 11:06 am
First of all, great article! I’ll bet this gets a lot of attention.
Second, I’m going to have to agree with Gibble (and you already knew that). For me personally, I can’t separate my beliefs and my finances. The faith drives what I do with my finances, and that comes out on my blog. I get a few blog trolls, but not many. I think the most important thing in blogging is to be yourself. For me, that’s to talk about faith. For you, it might not be. Either is OK.
As far as Dave Ramsey goes, just the fact that “Sharing Christ” is one of the things he teaches in the certification process tells me that his program is probably more about leading people to know Christ through financial counseling than it is about purely finances. Because of that, I can definitely see where he would limit the people he certifies to Christians only.
Dave Ramsey’s mission statement for his company is “The Lampo Group, Inc. is providing biblically based, common sense education and empowerment which gives HOPE to everyone from the financially secure to the financially distressed.” I think it would be hard for someone who didn’t believe the Bible as gospel truth to give biblically based education and empowerment.
March 12th, 2008 at 11:18 am
Lynnae and Gibble: That is why I said I would love to have a secular version of FPU. I really do think DR is limiting himself here, and big-time. I’m just not holding my breath waiting for it.
Kimberly: Glad to know I really am not the only “weirdo” LOL
Jen and Divers: I’ve heard he will also accept letters of recommendation from Catholic priests and Jewish rabbis, even though that is not what his website says.
As for the question of how a non-Christian could teach a Biblically-based finance course: I have told a Christian friend to haul his hide out of bed and get to church before. He needed it. I have no problem encouraging a Christian to pray. Would I pray for them? Ummm, given the differences in faith, I would ask permission first since I “pray” a lot differently.
I would tell a Jew to go to synagogue and ask his/her rabbi. I would tell a Moslem to pray and talk to his/her imam. I would tell a Buddhist to meditate and talk to his/her priest/monk/clergy (not sure of correct title here). I would tell a Hindu to pray/meditate and talk to his/her priest. I would tell an atheist to seriously think things through and have courage in him/herself. Religion is highly personal, and everyone comes to faith in their own way. Trying to alter someone’s beliefs when not asked to is not right, IMO.
March 12th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
“Trying to alter someone’s beliefs when not asked to is not right.” See, I totally agree with you there, and that’s why I believe it’s OK for Dave Ramsey to only offer certification to Christians. If he opens it up to non-Christians, he either has to make the non-Christians promote a faith they don’t believe in (by virtue of teaching them to share Christ), or he has to change the whole purpose of his program (to teach biblically based financial principals by offering a Christian-based financial counseling service), which he obviously doesn’t want to do.
Is he limiting the reach of his program by doing this? Sure. But obviously keeping the faith in the program is important to him, and I’m OK with him not being willing to give that up.
March 12th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
Well put, Ana. I am also a non-believer and a total *fangirl* of Dave Ramsey. Personally, though, I love the spirituality infused into his radio show. I am not Christin, but I believe in being a good steward, and in loving and caring in a principled way… I guess it’s hard to describe. For the most part, I think I lead a Christian life! I just don’t pray to God, or to anyone, for that matter. My faiths are my own and they fulfill me and make me the whole, caring, and conscious person that I am. Without my own faith structure, I would take a lot less time to understand and love the people different from me - including Christians.
My perspective is born of being the child of a born-again evangelical Christian mother and a father who believes in The Secret and Buddhism, and who used to pray to the plants. I think both are extremes, and I’ve found… some middle ground? Something like that. I know I’m a good person, and the Bible teaches a wealth of fantastic lessons. The quotes about the good Samaritan, the borrower is the slave to the lender, and practically everything Jesus said are verses to LIVE by and I have no problem using them when teaching and writing. They’re lessons - whether I believe I’m going to hell or not (because I don’t believe IN hell or heaven..) doesn’t matter.
As for religion and blogging? I don’t think it should be an issue. If you blog about Christian personal finance and you alienate some atheist, you only gain one more Christian supporter. And vice versa. I write about self-fulfillment and simplicity and happiness - these can be discussed while talking about all religions and not subscribing to a one.
I thought DR did have a non-religious FPU? It’s called Business Edition… I should look that up. My understanding was that it wasn’t religious. I’m probably wrong.
I do take issue with how all of his ministries are geared to only Christian people, but I have turned many friends on to Dave Ramsey who have no faith at all - they don’t seem to mind much. I warn them that he’s overtly Christian and will talk about his advice in Christian terms, but that they shouldn’t sell themselves short by walking away - his advice is fantastic and entertaining nonetheless
March 12th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Do i think bloggers should mix religion and personal finance? Based on the name of my blog (biblemoneymatters.com) - I guess I can’t say no on this one..
As a Christian I think my faith is a part of me, and it informs the decisions I make on a daily basis - including my money decisions.
A lot of people don’t realize that the Bible has a lot to say about finances too - there are over 2300 verses in the bible talking about money. A lot of that wisdom about money in the bible is just plain good money sense - stuff that Christians and non-Christians alike can make good use of.
So, personally I couldn’t leave my faith off of my blog or out of my personal finance decisions. And I think that people should blog about what they know, and what they personally find interesting.
As far as Dave Ramsey’s course coming out with a secular version, I don’t think that’s going to happen. But hey, maybe there’s an opening there for someone to come up with a course with similar principles on their own! I sense a big money maker here!
March 12th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
I’m a Christian (Catholic) and there was some discussion on the TMMO forums about whether a Catholic would be accepted as a DR certified counselor. No clear answer there, but many thought most Evangelicals would exclude Catholics. I considered doing the counselor training but checked into it and thought it was a bit of a racket. Seeing some counselor posts on the TMMO forums confirmed my suspicion.
BTW DR teaches very selectively out of the Bible…there’s NT teaching about money that really challenge his system and thinking.
OK Ana, do you tithe 10% of your gross income? Not to a church obviously, but to charity? Or another level of charitable giving? Or no charitable giving at all? I’m totally being nosy and it’s none of my business so you don’t have to answer that. BTW not all Christians tithe, it’s an 8th century Catholic invention (Christian tithing anyway). To read the debate, look at the wikipedia entry for tithing and read through some of the linked critical articles. There’s a really juicy Bible Christian critique of tithing linked there, calling it low-realm, obsolete, and defunct.
But DR keeps saying, if you’re a Christian, you tithe. Nope! Not all Christians are bound up by that rule. DR is projecting.
I think PF bloggers who have a faith perspective about money issues SHOULD include that. I’m a Christian 24/7 in all that I do…I can’t artificially remove part of my personality and being from this or that aspect of my life.
There’s quite a few non-Christians (other faiths or nonbelievers) on the TMMO boards. The common sense and the humor are enough to inform and entertain. DR isn’t as smarmily evangelical as the Crown radio programs.
March 12th, 2008 at 8:27 pm
Gee, Ana,
Dave Ramsey won’t certify non-believers. But non-believers can use Ramsey’s approach to finances effectively, and you are interested in helping people to do that.
Hmm. I am seeing an opportunity for you to fill a niche here!
If you are feeling the need for a certification of some sort, then is there another certification you could earn, and then just teach the basic finance principles that Ramsey espouses (giving him credit where credit is due)?
Or, gee, do you really need a certification at all to help teach people to get out of debt? You could certainly coach people using Ramsey’s book and others that might be useful.
March 12th, 2008 at 9:42 pm
Kentucky: Just to clear things up DR doesn’t say all Christians tithe. In fact I have heard him say ONLY 2% of Christians tithe 10%.
If you like DR’s plan for money then DO IT, if you are turned off by the Christian element to his teaching, then DON’T DO IT. It’s as simple as that.
March 12th, 2008 at 11:34 pm
I think it’s good(in fact, great) when religious verses are quoted in support of something that is seen to be good for us from the PF point of view. It’s just like quoting some philosopher or someone like that.
Religion may become an issue if anyone starts talking about a particular savings, frugality or investment idea can only work if we belong to any particular faith.
Otherwise, as someone quoted in the comments to Trent’s post on the issue of religion, a good idea is a good idea, no matter where it comes from.
March 13th, 2008 at 6:50 am
@ Brad: I know he quotes that statistic, but he also says to callers, “If you’re a Christian, you tithe.”
There’s plenty of non-Christians who don’t care for the Christian part of his teaching, but they like the rest of the program and do it. Are you saying they shouldn’t do the program if they don’t like the Christian part? Wow, Dave Ramsey wouldn’t be that extremist.
I like the Christian part of his message, myself, (even though he gets some parts wrong and ignores other money teachings in the Bible that contradict him). I think it’s really effective to incorporate Bible quotes in teaching Bible Christians who are an authority only unto themselves, who will only be convinced by the Bible. Picking out Bible quotes to support your message is a good way to convince/coerce people into changing their thoughts and behaviors.
We Catholics don’t need to proof-text like that. We have the virtue of prudence, meaning, we know God gave us a brain and expects us to use it. No proof-texting needed.
Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, I will never leave you, I will never forsake you. Hebrews 13:5
March 13th, 2008 at 6:57 am
Me, too, Ana! I am not religious but am a huge fan of Dave Ramsey.
He made what seemed impossible quite doable. And he didn’t mince words about making sacrifices to achieve it.
I see no point in shutting out the wisdom of those with different beliefs than mine, whether they base them on religion, politics, et cetera.
What a confining life we would have if we only surrounded ourselves with people (and ideas) just like us.
March 13th, 2008 at 10:11 am
I think the point you bring up about plonkee needing to keep her atheism off of her blog really is the kicker here.
Plonkee’s belief (or lack of, however you want to define it) is who she is. You cannot separate it from the financial part.
Dave Ramsey’s belief is part of who he is. You cannot separate it.
I’m a Christian, but I don’t write super-Christian posts. I’ll leave that to Dave and Glblguy (or guest posts on GLBL). I guess me personally, I am trying to fill that void where Dave pisses off people.
March 13th, 2008 at 10:24 am
ROFL No Debt Plan! “I am trying to fill the void where Dave pisses people off” You know he often says on the radio show that’s a “gift” he has.
And yes, plonkee’s atheism is part of who SHE is just as much as my non-Christian belief is part of who I am and Gibble’s and Lynnae’s and Peter’s Christian beliefs are who they are.
So why do readers email them and leave comments on their blog trying to dissuade them from being who they are? Any ideas?
March 13th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
Wonderful post! I’m another non-Christian DR fan. There are a lot of us out here in cyberland. While I’m not thrilled about non-Christians being excluded from certification, as another poster stated, I understand his reasoning. If his goal is not simply to create financial peace, but to promote financial peace through an evangelical relationship with God, having people who don’t share his beliefs in that position makes no sense. I agree that he’s missing a huge market/opportunity, however.
It’s fabulous to see more of us out here! Blog whatever you want, religion or no.
March 14th, 2008 at 8:57 am
Ana: Based on what I’ve seen of this behavior I think some people view religion as just another product you “buy” in some way, and just as you don’t carry all your other possessions around with you all the time to show off to your friends, there’s a time and a place for the religious “product” too. I think it’s an extension of the Sunday Christian mentality. There literally is a class of people out there now who do not understand the concept of religious views being part of who you are. And that class is, in my opinion, not very high.
It is one thing to want to keep government secular when the people living under that government come from many different religious backgrounds; that cuts way down on the possibility for religious oppression. But these people take that idea and extend it out to the rest of the public sphere that is not controlled by government and they can be really odious about it.
I suspect it’s where a lot of the prejudice against Muslims comes from: as with evangelical Christians, Muslims tend (though not always) to inform every aspect of their lives with their religious faith, and the “Sunday Christian” mentality finds that threatening.
And you can insert any other religion and its holy day of the week, if it has one; this sort of thinking isn’t limited to Christians, cultural or actual.
I think part of it comes from a mentality of, “Hey, you’re doing something that I know on some level *I* should be doing, but decided it was too much trouble. You are reminding me of my own failures, so I don’t like you.” I see the same thing on parenting blogs when someone writes about breastfeeding their child and the bottlefeeders come out of the woodwork to call them intolerant. I’ve seen it other places too. Here’s an example more relevant to the overall topic here: how many times has a spender visited you to grumble about all the frugality talk because “you only live once” and “we should be able to enjoy ourselves”? It hasn’t happened to me yet but I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve seen it elsewhere.
March 14th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
First, great post. No matter what your stance on religion, personal finance, or Dave Ramsey, I’d prefer you just be honest. As a Christian Dave Ramsey fan, I’m just glad that people like you are helping spread Dave’s message. There’s other people out there that are called to evangelize for God.
Second, Dave does offer FPU for the workplace as well as other versions. It was my understanding that the workplace version did not use religious references, but I could be wrong. Maybe it just had less religion, but I’m not sure how that would work. Look into it.
Last - love the blog. Keep up the good work!
March 25th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
[…] I don’t think it’s right though. And I’m not the only one - Ana who blogs at Debt-FREE revolution is a big Dave Ramsey fan, and she’s not a Christian at all. She wrote recently giving her opinions on the restrictions Ramsey imposes. […]
March 31st, 2008 at 5:40 pm
I was wandering around looking for Dave Ramsey religion quotes just to ask a few people about it. I am a non-Christian Dave Ramsey fan and have been for years. The man knows his money stuff, but like he says, he just took what was already out there and repackaged it! He just repackaged it with religious overtones, and well, he can do whatever he wants, and as long as it fits with his Evangelical Christian spirit, then he can do it!
Now, if people don’t want to see religious stuff, then they can start their own sites, they can go elsewhere, or they can turn the puter off! There is no reason to slam other people because of their religious views just because they are not your own.
One of my best friends is very religious, but yet was in debt over her head and sinking fast! I asked her one question, and asked for her to give me an answer in a couple of weeks, and to search her bible, talk to her pastor, and to search her heart about it then get that answer to me. “Where in the bible does it say that debt is a good thing?”
When she came back and told me she could find nothing in her bible that said it was a good thing, I then asked a pointed question and asked if she really was devout and following her bible, if she was not following it by being in debt? There were tears, and indignation, and anger, but the next question got her to see why I asked such a hurtful question. Do you expect me to stay your friend and watch you hurt yourself on a daily basis? You might as well be doing drugs! You don’t expect me to stay friends with a druggie do you? Tell me… That being in debt thing… How is that working for you? Are you sick and tired of being sick and tired? Do you love me enough to realize that I would not be saying hurtful things to you unless you NEEDED to hear them, and that I loved you enough to SAY them?
Boy did it take some real love to do that. But it needed to be done, and she 2 months later thanked me for saving her life. She is so much happier now, and has paid off 1/5th of her debt. She has a plan, and sees herself out of debt in 2 years! Now considering she has an 1100/month income, that is amazing!
Big thing is, everyone NEEDS support to stay on track to getting out of debt and to have that support when you live alone, sometimes you have to reach out to the world to find the friends you need. When you are searching for those friends, what you don’t need is people getting mad at you for using some Christian based teachings.
Those are just words. Words have no power over you unless you give them power! I HATED God and Jesus Christ(read real absolute go F*** yourself rather than tell me about your religion stuff). At least until I realized that I was just angry at the teacher for beating me just because I could not remember my Catechism. It wasn’t the religion’s fault, it was just a woman who had power and liked to abuse it.
Now, I am ok with religion, and have found a non-Christian based Church that I go to, and have found like minded people who believe that there is a power in the universe greater than we are, and we can use that power.
Ok I think I have wandered around a fair bit… (grin) back to your originally scheduled talk about money and debt!
April 24th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
This post is late, but I’m a Christian Dave Ramsey student and I’ve coordinated Financial Peace University in my church several times. Let me offer some insight into the Christian perspective on this. Dave’s plight (I believe) is toward ministry first…money second. If he’s got a choice between leading someone to a real relationship with Jesus Christ bringing complete peace and eternal life in heaven, or helping someone get out of debt, save and build wealth…uh, the answer’s obvious…HEAVEN! Personal finance just happens to be his gift and vocation, so he’s made that his life and ministry. The by-product is that EVERYONE IS BLESSED by his work…which is actually a foundational point of Christianity. Contrary to popular opinions, if you find a real Christian, in general you will find blessing through them. Now, they WILL tell you what they believe and they do hold to the doctrine of absolute truth (Dave says north is always north), but they are good employees, good bosses, they are faithful friends, they tell the truth, they balance justice, mercy, grace and forgiveness well…they are a meant to be a blessing to all. If they’re not…then do as Denis did above and challenge them…they may not actually be Christians…or they may need to refocus and grow up in their faith…you’ll know by how they react. If repentant, then they’re probably fervent…if defensive and angry to the hilt, then probably not Christian! Hope that helps. Good blog here!