Dave Ramsey: Con Man, Cult Leader, or Other?
September 5th, 2007 by Ana
Back in July when I started this blog and was going to the Financial Peace University retapings, hubby was still the very reluctant spouse. When I told him about my “seminar” his remark was that he hoped I enjoyed my classes with my “cult leader.” That was how he viewed Dave Ramsey, and he is definitely neither the first nor last reluctant spouse to do so. Nowadays, he refers to Dave as “our” cult leader since he finally listened to the CDs I sent him. LOL
One criticism I have heard and read directed at Dave Ramsey is, “How can he charge people he knows are up to their eyeballs in debt?” On one hand, this is a very valid criticism. People call into the Dave Ramsey radio show all the time with staggeringly huge amounts owed on just about everything, and often what precipitates the call is some major negative financial event like job loss, illness, or even a death in the family. These are the very people who seem least able to pay for Dave Ramsey’s books or for the study kit and enrollment fee for Financial Peace University or even the general admission ticket for a live event. This leads some critics to claim Dave Ramsey is a con man preying on the finanically strapped who are desperate for any hope.
Well, after listening to the Dave Ramsey show since right before New Years, I can say that argument doesn’t hold up very well. Dave often gives away his books, FPU memberships, and tickets to his live events to callers who need them. Others he tells to check his books out from their local library…because it’s FREE. He tells them listening to the radio show does not cost them anything -even listening online- and can serve to keep their motivation up during the long haul to get out of debt. Dave Ramsey does not require anyone to buy anything from him to get the “secrets” to getting out of debt. It can all be done for FREE if someone only has the desire to do it. Yes, he has been a salesman all his life, and says both of his parents were in sales, so maybe he just can’t help sounding like the pitchman he is. The truth is, if he were a con man he is a very poor one to be telling people to get his books from the library and giving away his merchandise almost every day.
As for cult leader status…well he isn’t asking for that. LOL In fact, there have been a few times on the radio show where he tells a caller they may be taking his advice too far. He doesn’t ask his “followers” to send him all their money, he isn’t stockpiling an armory for the end of the world, and he hasn’t asked anyone to start living in a commune. If anything, I see his as a counter-cult leader, with the debt-peddling companies being the ones who are trying to convert the population to the cult of debt. By choosing to follow the “common sense” principles Dave Ramsey espouses, I feel I have become a part of the new counter-culture. Maybe that is just the rebel in me rearing her head up, but for me it is a point of pride.
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September 5th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
I love Dave Ramsey! My husband rolls his eyes when I talk about Dave, though. I think my husband really thinks he’s some kind of cult leader. Fortunately he agrees with Dave’s principles though, so he’s on board with the budget.
I think you’re right about Dave.
September 5th, 2007 at 8:53 pm
I don’t know much about Dave (except what other bloggers say about him), but he is just a charismatic guy with a certain point of view about debt. I find myself at odds with his “pay down debt first ALWAYS” approach, but that is the type of message the majority of Americans need to hear. I’m glad there are teachers like him on the side of “good” out there.
September 5th, 2007 at 9:59 pm
Brian, you can always catch one of his radio shows online if you’d like to hear straight from the man himself and form your own opinion
Lynnae, at least your hubby agrees with the principles LOL I had to show mine how it worked for 8 months before he came aboard…!
September 5th, 2007 at 10:23 pm
[…] recently read a great post at Debt Free Revolution called Dave Ramsey: Con Man, Cult Leader, or Other? In the post, Ana ponders whether Dave Ramsey should be considered a con man since he charges money […]
September 7th, 2007 at 7:54 am
Well said.
Believe me… Dave’s no con man. He’s one of the most generous people I’ve ever met in my life.
September 7th, 2007 at 8:02 am
Chris…do you know him personally?
September 7th, 2007 at 9:35 am
I’m sorry. I totally thought I had commented here before. Maybe not. Yeah, I work for Dave.
September 7th, 2007 at 11:14 am
Chris, so cool. Dave Ramsey sounds like a fair but tough boss to work for LOL
September 7th, 2007 at 2:47 pm
If you want the real cult leader / con man, try Robert Kiyosaki.
September 7th, 2007 at 2:53 pm
[…] DebtFREE Revolution looks into whether Dave Ramsey is a cult leader or not. […]
September 8th, 2007 at 1:53 am
I still think its a cult. He might be a reluctant cult leader and its certainly a benign cult, but there’s still a touch of the irrational about devotees. If it helps people onto a firmer financial footing and doesn’t harm anyone then that’s perfectly ok.
September 10th, 2007 at 11:18 am
I have listened to Dave quite a bit and from what I can tell, he is a stand up, honest guy… He does give stuff away all the time and really seems to be interested in helping his listeners… As far as a cult - there are people with obsessive devotion to him, agreed, but that is the case with most celebrities or people of influence. Many people in the US really idolize these people and honestly some people do take it beyond what is rational… But that is Dave’s listeners, not him - I have never heard him say or do anything that would imply that He is trying to create that kind of following
September 21st, 2007 at 9:20 pm
I would contend that the cult aspect, really revolves around the information, vs Dave himself. When you take our situation, clueless college grads, that racked up $125,000 in student loans, cars & credit cards, and along comes this book The Total Money Makeover. We read the book, start following the steps, and boom 2.5 years later, that $125,000 is gone, you tend to believe in that you’ve been listening to. So, indeed, If believing in a system so much, because you know it will absolutely work would qualify me to be part of this cult, then yes, consider my head shaven w/ a red tongue (we drank the kool aid)
September 21st, 2007 at 10:42 pm
Steve…wow, $125K in 2.5 years? Way to GO!!!!!
September 27th, 2007 at 9:00 am
What I like about him: when people ask how he is doing, he answers “Better than I deserve” and he mean it!
October 27th, 2007 at 4:17 pm
[…] dave ramsey: con man, cult leader or other? - well, personally I reckon he is (unintentionally) a cult leader but read what Ana thinks […]
December 11th, 2007 at 3:52 pm
Dave Ramsey is making millions off of the poor, religious and stupid. He knows that most Americans these days think its better to pay someone to help them instead of helping themselves. Out of 100 makeover books sold, what is the number of the readers that actually get out of debt? Dave doesn’t provide that statistic. You don’t need Dave Ramsey any more than you need another credit card. If he was truly interested in helping poor people he wouldn’t be charging them. So Ill save everyone the $15.95 and tell you the secret for getting out of debt. Are you ready?
Spend as little as possible.
Pssssst. Here’s another secret: You can pay pack $125,000 in two years without anyone’s help.
December 29th, 2007 at 6:02 am
[…] Dave Ramsey: Con Man, Cult Leader, or Other? - DebtFREE-Revolution […]
January 2nd, 2008 at 4:26 pm
Dave Ramsey gets in debt and files bankruptcy.
His callers get in debt and he tells them to eat beans and rice, sell everything they own, and work 2 or 3 jobs 7 days a week to get out of debt.
His website accepts credit cards .
Visa & MC won’t allow merchants to only accept debit cards.
If Ramsey was serious about his distain for plastic he would
tell his buyers he only accepts checks or money ordsers thru the US Mail. Of course this would be a hassle for Ramsey and it’s easier fro Ramsey to get the money fast and secure through Visa and Master card.
Maybe he could even lower his prices if he no longer had to pay Visa and Master MERCHANT FEES. They he could pass the saving on to his faithful followers who apparently buy stupid things like “bumper stickers” and “designer envelopes”… just what everyone needs! What garbage!
Cult leader… I don’t know
HYPOCRITE??? YES!!!
January 15th, 2008 at 1:01 am
Thank you, selfempowered_debtfree, for your amazingly insane and vapid post.
January 25th, 2008 at 8:40 am
I think he does more than not encourage people to be a cult like following, he discourages it. For example:
http://acuriousblog.blogspot.com/2008/01/perfect-example.html
Also, Dave Ramsey does not accept credit cards. They do a pretty good job of explaining it here:
http://www.daveramsey.com/etc/cms/debit_card_policy_32.htmlc
To say he accepts credit cards is like saying any stranger accepts giving me their car because I know how to break in and hotwire it to drive it home. My lack of regard for someone’s wishes does not constitute acceptance on their part.
February 22nd, 2008 at 12:35 pm
Self-Empowered…
Do you also believe that the following people shouldn’t be paid?
Police officers
Fire Fighters
Military Personnel
Doctors
Lawyers
etc
etc
Afterall, those are professionals who like to help people too. If they are interesting in really helping people, shouldn’t they do it for free?
February 22nd, 2008 at 2:40 pm
Hey Bill, I don’t know about self-empowered, but that bit about military hits pretty close to home here! I served six years in the army myself, and hubby is still serving. If you ask me, we pretty much work close to free for the hours and dangers involved!
Dave ramsey says his ideas aren’t original. He just packages them up in an easy to understand plan THAT WORKS. Add me to the list of success stories this weekend!
February 26th, 2008 at 9:06 am
Wow, cult? Um, I haven’t been contacted and asked to move to the compound in French Guyana. LOL
On the MyTMMO forums, there’s a lot of intense DR fans there, and we call ourselves koolaid drinkers. But it’s interesting because we also are independent thinkers and disagree with DR on some things. OMG you mean his most avid fans have independent thoughts and disagree with the guru? *shock*
Yes. Personally, here are some of my differences.
1. I wouldn’t advocate that anyone stop contributing to their retirement plan to the employer match, unless they couldn’t stay current with their bills. (Reducing additional voluntary contributions, perhaps, yes, while getting out of consumer debt.)
2. I don’t use my credit card very much but prefer to do so for online transactions, large purchases, travel ticket purchases, car rentals, and international travel because of the features and benefits of CC’s. The thing that is different now is that I hate CC DEBT and carrying a balance. DR helped me with that. But I don’t think I’ll ever totally get rid of the CC.
3. DR hates the FICO, but I think as long as one has a FICO (until 10 years after the last debt including mortgage is paid off), then might as well not cause it any damage and make your life worse. That isn’t worshipping at the alter of the almighty FICO, because we aren’t drinking Suze Orman (paid FICO hoor)’s koolaid and trying to manipulate our scores. With a basic understanding of how it works and how it can affect you, there’s no reason to intentionally damage your FICO. Especially while paying off CC debt, because there’s provisions even worse than Universal Default that FICO changes can trigger.
5. Reasonable government student loans (as a last resort) to finance a higher education to get a better paying job isn’t the end of the world. It’s stupid to work at a low-paying job for years and years trying to save up for college, because the opportunity cost is too great–trading higher income earning years for low income years. Get into that higher paying occupation ASAP!
4. A couple other ways I differ in practice is in having significant life insurance without having any dependents and having LTC insurance way too young. I’m hesitant to pay off my last bit of student loan early because it’s so cheap and the terms are favorable to my circumstances and risks…and the liquidity of my savings is more important to me right now than being debt free. (A paid off debt can’t pay the bills in a bad patch, but a big fat savings account can.) I have good reasons for all those things, and a sober view of my risks. I don’t advocate it for everyone, but as we avid DR fans say, “PERSONAL FINANCE is PERSONAL!”
So I don’t know where this cult thing comes from. If it’s a cult, we are the most disobedient, independent thinking, unbrainwashed cult members evah!!! DR trying to control us wouldn’t be like herding sheep, it would be more like herding greased cats. LOL
I’m surprised at the anti-business, anti-income, anti-profit attitude displayed against him. Why doesn’t a person deserve to get paid for providing a valuable product or service? I provide a valuable product/service in my work, but I wouldn’t be able to afford to do it on a volunteer basis and it wouldn’t get done at all by anyone. I happily pay my dentist, doctor, auto mechanic, priest, boat repair guy, teachers, vet, the grocery store, various writers and booksellers, hotels, restaurants, waitri, etc. for their products and services they provide me. The dollars I give them are little certificates of appreciation and gratitude. If you hate money, you are repelling it from your life. That bad attitude needs to change if you’re going to have prosperity.
DR’s stuff is available free (online web resources, internet radio, etc.) and a lot of churches scholarship people who can’t pay for FPU but who really need it…much less the Share It foundation that provides books/FPU free in low income housing projects, schools, displaced homemaker programs, etc.
I didn’t need to buy DR’s books but I wanted to because I’m a total book fiend. I didn’t have to buy the pink and orange deluxe wallet system but I wanted to because I didn’t want loose envelopes in my briefcase…and I’ve been on a pink kick for a couple of years…it’s my theme color.
I sent a TMMO book ($10 special, free shipping) to my Dnephew19 as a bonus Christmas present because he is interested in personal prosperity, small business, and wealth building. I sent it to my bff because she and her DH are having money problems (although she’s doing a lot better than the decade she spent on welfare). So, I get to send a new book at the cheapest available new price with free shipping to other people who really need help because DR offers crazy insane specials on pricing and shipping. Oh what a money grubber. LOL
April 28th, 2008 at 10:28 am
I used DR’s stuff for a short while just to get started on coming up with a financial plan. It’s good stuff. I’m pretty much ready to move beyond just his advice into considering things like, paying off my mortgage vs. trying for higher-than-my-APR investment returns.
I’ve never paid DR a cent. I tried TMMO for the trial period, and it had some neat stuff - but I get similar services from my bank (which is definitely a business!). So I didn’t pay - I canceled pretty quickly, and then continued to use the rest of my trial period.
July 4th, 2008 at 3:22 am
I still think its a cult. He might be a reluctant cult leader and its certainly a benign cult, but there’s still a touch of the irrational about devotees. If it helps people onto a firmer financial footing and doesn’t harm anyone then that’s perfectly ok.
July 11th, 2008 at 8:28 pm
Amy…. Dave’s web site does NOT accept credit cards!!! He does however accept DEBIT cards.
July 19th, 2008 at 10:23 am
Steve… technically the Dave Ramsey will accept credit cards:
“* The Lampo Group, Inc. and Dave Ramsey recognize that the Visa and MasterCard virtual monopoly on the debit card industries prohibits merchants from only taking debit cards. As such, it is impossible for us to ensure that every order has complied with our debit card policy. We trust that all of our customers hold EXCEEDINGLY high levels of INTEGRITY and maintain EXTRAORDINARILY high standards of TRUTH and HONESTY. Basically, anyone ordering from us who does not follow this policy is a shady and dishonest character. Don’t put yourself in this group. You’re better than that. Stick to our policy, NO CREDIT CARDS, and make us all happy.”
It’s pointed out in an above post that he has a clause found at the bottom of this page: http://www.daveramsey.com/etc/cms/debit_card_policy_32.htmlc
So, while he verbally and in print states, “We are NOT accepting credit cards!” in clause Number 1, he at the bottom of the page concedes that his site will accept credit cards, but he doesn’t want it that way.